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Infantilization
#11
(08-14-2020, 12:52 AM)rubberpinafore Wrote: Actually I am firmly for sexual equality as everyone is equal.  We do our thing simply to accommodate my fetishes and my wife wants me to be happy.  I in turn want only that for her too, to be happy, and we have found a way that works supremely well for us.  I am sure this will no doubt upset a few of the members but I mean no one any disrespect.  Each to their own and best of luck in how you achieve that goal.
I am with you for the most part I think, rubberpinafore. I too strive in many respects for equality. It is just that sometimes equality itself can come in very different forms.

For instance, my theories around how education should work, whilst either encouraging males to get in touch with their feminine side (which is an acknowledgment that there is a notable inequality, not so much in law which in most cases allows for gender expression but in the stigma that prevents what would undoubtedly be a much broader range of gender expression otherwise) or in licensing masculinity (which highlights my belief that masculinity is the root cause of so many of today’s problems that it ought to be afforded to only those who can prove that they’re mature enough to handle the responsibility - but even in this theory, I apply the concept to both genders). 

Ultimately we will know we have found equality when we won‚Äôt be saying ‚Äėthat is for girls‚Äô or ‚Äėthat is for boys‚Äô and either gender neutrality becomes the norm or clothing becomes a reflection of an individual‚Äôs ranking and ability to exude potentially dangerous characteristics (a meritocracy, if you like).

I understand that you dress as you do for your own reasons; it just occurred to me that much of it does coincidentally seem to harmonise with the practices that BPS is advocating for.
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#12
"It is just that sometimes equality itself can come in very different forms."

Really? Surely by definition "equality" is just that, irrespective of gender, race, religion or law.

I will accept equality has arrived when men and women are paid the same for doing the same job. It is acknowledged and accepted there is a gender pay difference yet that has never been addressed and rectified. I sadly doubt it will during my lifetime though.
Always in strict uniform
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#13
Well, there is a difference for instance in equality of opportunity and equality of outcome. Most people would argue that equality of opportunity should exist, but equality of outcome would indicate that (to take your example) pay should be the same irrespective of what one chooses to do with that opportunity. 

In addition to this you have opportunity of clothing. Women in general currently have the ability in general society to wear a whole range of clothes (skirts, dresses, trousers) whereas males are much more restricted. Schools have gone some way to trying to resolve this (though societal attitudes have not really gone with them to the same extent) but this has not translated to the employment world to any extent. Not only males often be frowned on for wearing makeup, but females in some industries would be frowned on for not wearing makeup. So in the world (that I think we both aspire to) men and women are being paid the same for doing the same job, but being held to different dress standards for doing that job.

Add to this complications like different individuals devoting more time to their families meaning that they have less experience in their chosen industry and possibly fewer skills. They are doing the same job but are able to cover other jobs, are more familiar with the customers etc and so have a higher value to their employer. 

This is why when the relative pay packets of celebrities are discussed, some come out higher than others. They operate on the same TV show but the differential in pay is accounted for either through different levels of experience (a football commentator who has been at their top of their game and understands it inside out) or might do more than one show for the same employer. If there are two hosts of a breakfast show but one also does an evening show then evidently the one who does two shows is going to get paid for doing so (which is often overlooked when this is raised as an issue). 

So yes we can have equality in pay, but do we do this irrespective of whether they can provide the same level of experience to a role (in other words equality of outcome) or do we simply have equality of opportunity- though quite how you break down the class barriers currently preventing this is another matter.

Added to that, should we expect everyone to dress equally for doing that job? As an air stewardess I wear skirt, heels and makeup (the latter of which is still legislated for in contract). Should we be paid more for having to wear particular makeup or should the stewards have to wear makeup too? Furthermore working in heels is more difficult than working in flats and wearing a skirt poses more risks than wearing trousers (and yet it is accepted that the former in each case looks better and for women least (inequality again) is a more desirable image both for the public and consequently, the employer and only isn’t all mandatory due to PC reasons (we can’t say equality reasons as stewards would be frowned on for wearing such things). But as some of these items are more difficult to work in yet more desirable, equality is not there yet equality of pay remains. On that basis, could one argue that clothing is a basis for pay differential? I’m not arguing for against this by the way (although my previous comments and theories probably give an indication of where I sit on gendered clothing generally) but just highlighting some of the differences that could affect ability and definitely affect equality.

What you are left with after all this are a whole range of factors, each of which are theoretically capable of being equalised in their own right but which due to mix of gender differences, life choices and education standards means that no two people are ever going to have equality on all levels. 

I like you am in favour of equal pay for both genders (as I am in the comparison of any other differential which doesn’t impact on the ability to do the same job) but we need to understand where the differences are that have created such inequalities whether as a consequence of gender (and whilst males are getting more involved now, the decision to start a family which results in differences of experience level may be considered to be one of these) or any other metric if we are to decide which inequalities should be factored in when determining differences in outcome.
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#14
(08-16-2020, 05:13 AM)Girlygirl Wrote: Well, there is a difference for instance in equality of opportunity and equality of outcome. Most people would argue that equality of opportunity should exist, but equality of outcome would indicate that (to take your example) pay should be the same irrespective of what one chooses to do with that opportunity. 

‚ÄúEquality of opportunity‚ÄĚ is precisely why we do not have sexual equality, certainly in the workplace.¬† ‚ÄúEquality of outcome‚ÄĚ has nothing to do with sexism at all, nor do I see how any outcome can be identical to any two different people irrespective of gender.¬† Hence pay is (should) be awarded due to academic qualifications, experience in the job, length of service, dedication/loyalty to the job and further criteria affecting the outcome of one‚Äôs input into the position.

In addition to this you have opportunity of clothing. Women in general currently have the ability in general society to wear a whole range of clothes (skirts, dresses, trousers) whereas males are much more restricted. Schools have gone some way to trying to resolve this (though societal attitudes have not really gone with them to the same extent) but this has not translated to the employment world to any extent. Not only males often be frowned on for wearing makeup, but females in some industries would be frowned on for not wearing makeup. So in the world (that I think we both aspire to) men and women are being paid the same for doing the same job, but being held to different dress standards for doing that job.

Yes, women do have the option to wear what they wish in most jobs (unless dedicated PPE or similar is required) and mens'¬†choices are¬†more restricted due to society‚Äôs acceptance of some items (suit and tie used to be mandatory in most vocations), but it is not illegal or unlawful for men to dress as they choose to do their jobs.¬† They may be subjected to peer pressure or ridicule from colleagues should they prefer to dress outside of the ‚Äúnorm‚ÄĚ but I have yet to hear of anyone being legally sacked from their position due to infringement of a dress code.

Men and women are not being paid to do the same job, which is my whole point, nor do I see them being held to differing dress codes either.

Add to this complications like different individuals devoting more time to their families meaning that they have less experience in their chosen industry and possibly fewer skills. They are doing the same job but are able to cover other jobs, are more familiar with the customers etc and so have a higher value to their employer. 

Are you suggesting that anyone looking after a family is less experienced in their job? I don’t see how that can be.  And I certainly can’t see how looking after a family offers more skills into your job either.  Perhaps you can expand on your point?

This is why when the relative pay packets of celebrities are discussed, some come out higher than others. They operate on the same TV show but the differential in pay is accounted for either through different levels of experience (a football commentator who has been at their top of their game and understands it inside out) or might do more than one show for the same employer. If there are two hosts of a breakfast show but one also does an evening show then evidently the one who does two shows is going to get paid for doing so (which is often overlooked when this is raised as an issue). 

As already mentioned above, you get paid what the job is worth and if your workload is higher or you work longer/unsociable hours, have more experience or are more knowledgeable; of course you expect to be better fiscally compensated.  However using your example, if one show host is male and the other female are you suggesting they will be equally paid if they are co-hosting and not taking on further tasks?  The man will get paid more and this is fundamentally wrong and why I assert we do not have equality between the sexes until this is remedied across the board.

So yes we can have equality in pay, but do we do this irrespective of whether they can provide the same level of experience to a role (in other words equality of outcome) or do we simply have equality of opportunity- though quite how you break down the class barriers currently preventing this is another matter.

We can and should have equal pay for the same job, irrespective of sex, but we do not.¬† Nor do we have equal opportunity, either due to the ‚Äúold boys‚Äô network‚ÄĚ or the ‚Äúschool tie brigade‚ÄĚ still ruling the roost.¬† It is improving very slowly but it is hampered my men worried over the outcome of equality and their hampering and filibustering to implement any kind of meaningful processes to address this unfair and unacceptable situation.

Added to that, should we expect everyone to dress equally for doing that job? As an air stewardess I wear skirt, heels and makeup (the latter of which is still legislated for in contract). Should we be paid more for having to wear particular makeup or should the stewards have to wear makeup too? Furthermore working in heels is more difficult than working in flats and wearing a skirt poses more risks than wearing trousers (and yet it is accepted that the former in each case looks better and for women least (inequality again) is a more desirable image both for the public and consequently, the employer and only isn’t all mandatory due to PC reasons (we can’t say equality reasons as stewards would be frowned on for wearing such things). But as some of these items are more difficult to work in yet more desirable, equality is not there yet equality of pay remains. On that basis, could one argue that clothing is a basis for pay differential? I’m not arguing for against this by the way (although my previous comments and theories probably give an indication of where I sit on gendered clothing generally) but just highlighting some of the differences that could affect ability and definitely affect equality.

I am somewhat confused by this.  Aren’t you in your work wearing a female uniform and makeup, yet you are male?  Or have I completely misunderstood your situation- sincere apologies if this is not the case?  Wouldn’t that make your point moot, if so?

What you are left with after all this are a whole range of factors, each of which are theoretically capable of being equalised in their own right but which due to mix of gender differences, life choices and education standards means that no two people are ever going to have equality on all levels. 

But no two people are genuinely equal irrespective of whether they are male or female nor have I indicated or suggested this.

I like you am in favour of equal pay for both genders (as I am in the comparison of any other differential which doesn’t impact on the ability to do the same job) but we need to understand where the differences are that have created such inequalities whether as a consequence of gender (and whilst males are getting more involved now, the decision to start a family which results in differences of experience level may be considered to be one of these) or any other metric if we are to decide which inequalities should be factored in when determining differences in outcome.

So where do you believe these differences are then?  And I am still puzzled with your referencing a family to debate equality of sexes?  Are you implying role reversal at home is the cause of sexual inequality?  It may well have been but happily men have been staying at home looking after the family for decades, whist the women go to work and forge a career.


Response in bold italics (not shouting, simply easier to respond to your points this way Smile¬†) and¬†an interesting debate, but I am not sure any conclusions can be drawn other than echoing James Brown‚Äôs epic ‚ÄúIt‚Äôs a Man‚Äôs Man‚Äôs Man‚Äôs world‚Ä̂Ķ
Always in strict uniform
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#15
I think it is probably easier to just to say that we are in general agreement here, rubberpinafore. I wasn’t trying to argue for or against any particular metrics of determining equality, but merely pointing out (in response to you having highlighted it) that equality can be discussed with respect to different areas individually and that due to the complexity of life itself (and in the valid cases mainly with respect to life choices) no two people will find themselves equal on all counts.
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#16
Agreed- it was/is a refreshing change to have someone who is articulate and can carry a debate. No ulterior motives and no malice intended. Just a bit of fun.
Always in strict uniform
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#17
(08-06-2020, 02:06 PM)BabyPrincessSophie Wrote: Much is said in this forum about feminization, making men take "traditionally feminine" attitudes, activities and clothing. But I would like to talk about a topic that I consider just as important and that in fact goes hand in hand with feminization, infantilization. Have men of all ages take children's attitudes, activities, and clothing (Specifically little girls' stuffs).

As you know by my name I love the princesses because they are the stereotype of sissy that I want to be but you can talk about programs for girls in general. The topics they deal with are perfect for feminization since they are full of messages in the background for girls to reinforce those attitudes that they are trying to implant so it would be perfect to educate the sissies in their role of life.

Ideally I would like that the reward for a sissy for a good cleaning or cooking job is being to be able to watch her favorite tv show, obviously one where she will see lots of beautiful princesses and yearn to be as pretty as they are. She would ask her wife to buy her those beautiful dresses full of bows, petticoats, glitters and a lot of pink heart shapes.

She would also see cleaning and home care work so she would ask for kitchen items that would normally be plastic but she is already a married adult and have obligations at home so instead she would receive for example a real kitchen knife but with a pink handle with a printed image of her favorite princess saying a phrase like "Good cooks are the most prettier". The same with all her cleaning and home care articles, to do herr chores while singing a children's song about finding the magic of love and dreams. 

When she see beautiful princesses she will want to look like them and ask for makeup and accessories for their clothes. Waiting for aa prince charming (Woman in this case) will make her have a projection of her marriage for which she want to be prepared and be a good wife.

Feminization and infantilization complement each other very well to create good sissies.

Next is not necessary but I want to talk about it. Diapers and other baby items. Making a sissy wear diapers to remind her of her inferior place before women, a man cannot believe that he is more than his daughter when he wears diapers and she does not. The message is clear, he is inferior to all women regardless of age. Pacifiers are good vows of silence since they could only be removed by a woman, leaving them without the possibility of speaking without permission. The hours of early sleep will make you finish your daily tasks faster, he knows that he cannot go to sleep late and if he is seen out of bed he will be punished.

The final idea is not that sissies are treated 100% like little girls or babies who have to take care. They would still be adults capable of cleaning the house, cooking with fire, taking care of the children, buying things in the market for dinner and having sex if her wife wants it. The idea is simply that they take just what is necessary to learn their place as sissies in society, although in the end the decision will always be of the wife for what she wants to do with her sissy.

One of my fantasies is for my wife to keep me in diapers and not let me change them myself. I would protest "Why you trust me to change our son's diapers but you don't trust me to change my own diaper" to which she would reply punishing me with a good spanking. I don't change my own diapers, not because I can't but to accentuate the power she has over me. After that she puts a pacifier on my mouth and won't let me take it off, since then any opinion that I have has to be asked for by her first.

Maybe I will write a story of how I imagine all this. Anyway, tell me what you think of infantilization as a complement to feminization?


Princess Sophie
Hi Princess Sophie!
I love a lot of the ideas that you express here. I myself keep my slave husband dressed in little girl clothes 24/7. Since quarantine started he has not worked and has not been allowed to wear any of his old male clothing.  He has lists of daily, weekly, and monthly chores that he has to do and I inspect to make sure they are done to my satisfaction.  If they aren't he is severely punished.  If the chores are done to my satisfaction he is allowed "free time" to play with his dolls or color in his coloring books. 
I firmly believe in pacifiers to keep him quiet! He is not allowed to take them out or speak with one in his mouth. 
I love the comment about a father wearing diapers while his daughter has outgrown them.
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#18
(08-22-2020, 08:50 AM)Jessielinton Wrote: Hi Princess Sophie!
I love a lot of the ideas that you express here. I myself keep my slave husband dressed in little girl clothes 24/7. Since quarantine started he has not worked and has not been allowed to wear any of his old male clothing.  He has lists of daily, weekly, and monthly chores that he has to do and I inspect to make sure they are done to my satisfaction.  If they aren't he is severely punished.  If the chores are done to my satisfaction he is allowed "free time" to play with his dolls or color in his coloring books. 
I firmly believe in pacifiers to keep him quiet! He is not allowed to take them out or speak with one in his mouth. 
I love the comment about a father wearing diapers while his daughter has outgrown them.
Is this something that he was into already? If not, has he taken to it - does he make a special effort to be able play with dolls and colour in?

On the flip side, it would be interesting to read your description of a severe punishment (it certainly sounds like something well avoided irrespective of one’s enthusiasm of colouring in).  Wink
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#19
As a fetishist and sexual submissive adult man I love your ideas. The concept of having my firm-handed wife use a pacifier as a gag with strict rules really gets my engine going!
Ss
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#20
(08-22-2020, 09:50 AM)Girlygirl Wrote:
(08-22-2020, 08:50 AM)Jessielinton Wrote: Hi Princess Sophie!
I love a lot of the ideas that you express here. I myself keep my slave husband dressed in little girl clothes 24/7. Since quarantine started he has not worked and has not been allowed to wear any of his old male clothing.  He has lists of daily, weekly, and monthly chores that he has to do and I inspect to make sure they are done to my satisfaction.  If they aren't he is severely punished.  If the chores are done to my satisfaction he is allowed "free time" to play with his dolls or color in his coloring books. 
I firmly believe in pacifiers to keep him quiet! He is not allowed to take them out or speak with one in his mouth. 
I love the comment about a father wearing diapers while his daughter has outgrown them.
Is this something that he was into already? If not, has he taken to it - does he make a special effort to be able play with dolls and colour in?

On the flip side, it would be interesting to read your description of a severe punishment (it certainly sounds like something well avoided irrespective of one’s enthusiasm of colouring in).  Wink

Hi girly! 
He was absolutely not into coloring books or playing with his dolls. He does make a special effort to have fun with it because it is the closest he comes to actual fun activities.  I don't allow him to watch TV or play on the computer.  
Severe punishments involve hard spankings, corner time, line writing assignments,  and time spent in a dog cage or wearing a humbler
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