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DAVID'S CHRISTMAS HUMILIATION
#21
(08-22-2020, 03:59 PM)Salonslave Wrote: GG, I respectfully disagree.
I think it is enough that everyone goes through school grades beginning with not only kindergarten, but pre K and now pre pre K or Headstart in USA.
I just do not believe that equating progress with gender accoutrements is good for youngsters. I don’t like to think of anything even remotely sexual with young people.
I miss the 50s with the two parent household and formal education beginning with the first grade at 6. The time spent with my mother before first grade taught me table manners, proper diction, how to tie my shoes, how to plant, keep, and harvest a garden. My mom was never preoccupied by texting or other BS.
Food service was led by my mom but everyone helped and didn’t need special gender clothing to become respectable reliable people.
Ss
Although I wasn’t around to see those old days, a lot of people seem to harm back to it as the hey day if you like. Unfortunately other aspects of life have changed in ways that mean we now have no method of getting back to an era of familial harmony and the levels of acceptability in punishment methods is such that when youngsters do stray from the path, get into bad habits or get into the wrong crowd, modern correctional methods are found wanting (stats speak for themselves on this). 

With respect to the ideas I have set out, they are designed specifically to remove those gender elements. You have to remember that it is easy to fall into today’s standards. Let’s take the example of ‘Gender Studies’ as it is probably easier to apply a realistic scenario. If you say ‘skirt’ or ‘dress’ today one immediately thinks ‘girl’. In a society where boys were regularly wearing such clothing, they wouldn’t be thinking ‘girl’ any longer but rather ‘student’ or maybe even ‘person’. You could replace the terms masculine and feminine where I have used them with ‘Physical’ and ‘Academic’ or ‘rough’ and ‘gentle’, as these are differences and attributes that the masculine and feminine are in practice mostly used to distinguish between.

This process has already taken place for females to some extent in that they can wear most traditionally Male clothes and take part in most once Male specific activities without comment. The converse is almost invariably not the case. Far from being a description of systems that equate progress with ‘gender accoutrements’, the aim would be to remove gender from clothing and activities/ hobbies altogether. 

In an ideal world which was tolerant of all reasonable and harmless hobbies and where everyone was law abiding (the latter of which has certainly denigrated in the time between the period you hark back to and now while the former has largely progressed) none of this would be necessary but the fact is that gender remains a discussed issue (although the ways in which males are repressed - as discussed above - not so much) and adequate discipline methods to raise younger generations has certainly been a problem for some time. 

You and I clearly want to reach the same objectives; I just see certain aspects where we are presently way off course.
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#22
As Mark Twain said, "clothes maketh the man" but it seems according to some, it is also the root cause to all the ails in today's society. Then do away with all clothing and go back to what Nature intended; naked. Would that appease the warring tendencies so approved by male species- and then it is only a minority of men who are responsible for this. To my mind it is religion that is the real evil, but I have no wish to derail this thread with that elephant.

Instead I was interested to read that some people truly feel that cross-dressing is the answer to all of our social troubles. Really? The idea of indoctrinating children to wear dresses and skirts to brainwash them into appreciating the feminine side of things before being allowed to "earn right to their masculine side" is quite chilling and absurd.

In a democratic society freedom of choice is paramount and to regulate or control any aspect of that is simply wrong.

"For the first time males as a whole would appreciate why it took so long for females to get ready as they would themselves have previously spent hours practicing their own hair and makeup. They would be able to sympathise with the pain of walking distances in high heels as such footwear would be familiar to them also."

No, that is called common sense. And as to having sympathy for people who wear heels, again no. Their choice, their discomfort and if it is not to their liking, stop doing it. More common sense.

By far the best comment comes from Salonslave's last post, which I found right on the money.
Always in strict uniform
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#23
I think going back to being naked might bring a few of its own problems  Wink 

Seriously, I respect the views of yourself and Salonslave. I think partly this is a case of Baby Boomer vs Latter Day Millennial type argument. As a millennial I am not able to connect to the period that Salonslave talks about and whilst behaviour and upbringing was probably felt to be better then, equality and freedom of expression has certainly moved on in the time period since. 

I still maintain the idea of referring to it as crossdressing is wrong as in the ideas I discuss, the apparel would become for both genders and would take on entirely new meaning. Incidentally, I assume you felt much the same when girls started crossdressing in traditional boy clothes (and trousers for girls is now enforced in some U.K. schools interestingly)? 

That said, I accept that the ideas have been roundly rejected by the debate. 

The question remains therefore what methods are on the table. I presume we would agree that we have a generation (if not several) of largely misbehaved youth (compared to the 1950s at the very least - else I am not sure it could claim to be the utopia it has been made out to be). 

What I am interested in is the ideas that will fix this. The idea of a family unit is a sound one but the path to reforming it seems less obvious. Moreover, with physical punishments off the table and teachers seemingly losing control of the classroom, what new methods do we need to employ to rectify that problem?

In a democratic society freedom of choice is paramount and to regulate or control any aspect of that is simply wrong. [Quote]

This is a big part of the problem. Females have a much greater freedom of choice than they used to but whilst it is generally legal for males to dress as women (though the lengths I have had to go to in not only dressing in female clothes but actually presenting as a woman would have deterred most people) society is still generally not receptive. In that respect at least, the ‘Gender Studies’ model aims to give children more freedom of choice, not less.

If I break it down to the key questions that I feel have been established by this interesting debate:

1. By what methods do we reunite the family unit in the modern society (bearing in mind that with the change in the nature of gender specific roles, we would need to find a new model for the modern family).

2. For wayward youth, what correctional methods (which actually work) might we consider employing?

3. We have agreed that there should be freedom of expression and yet while on the one hand girls have the freedom to wear traditional boys clothes (and have done for so long that we don’t even think of it in those terms) and this is even enforced as mandatory in some educational institutions, while on the other hand crossdressing from males (let alone anything approaching my own ideas which we are setting aside for the time being) is seen by society as being unacceptable, how do we go about balancing this inequality?
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#24
First off, I must say that this discussion is enlightening. I love that we are so respectful to one another as we try to figure out a cure for what changes would help the modern world come to terms with modernity; particularly with regard to wayward males.
As regards further discussion of the “religion Elephant”, I would not see discussion of this as derailing our discussion, but expanding it.
Now back to how are we going to get boys to behave better.
Is seems obvious that since we are on this track which is moving into the future, reversing course to the golden years of my youth is simply not possible. I concede that point.
Before writing herein I have looked up Gender Studies on the internet and have learned a lot by hopping around (surfing) the subject. Wow!
Maybe it comes down to culture. We have many cultures. I am in Louisiana,USA. I am Caucasian.
I believe the major change in how boys behave has a lot to do with following the example of those close to us; particularly boys watching how men act.
We have within our midst several other cultures to study. The Mexicans living here and those back home seem to have their act together. Principle among the attributes within modern Mexican culture is strong family ties and participation with family. Also l, the work ethic has held on. Mentor ship is alive and well.
Locally there is the Vietnamese culture. While we say Vietnamese, this is incorrect as these people have thrived as a culture in many locals. They are all about family and hard work, but also the Vietnamese students have an obvious ability to excel in school. This is true across the board, but especially in math.
Here there is also a large Black culture. To be more precise, this is the African American culture. Speaking in generalities, their culture is tumultuous. The women are the glue that holds it all together. The matriarchal culture is lacking because there is a dearth or even keeled men with the duty of mentorship as their prime directive. Asses are whipped at early ages, but there is a disproportionate number of Black men is legal trouble from violence.
The Caucasian culture seems bent on acquiring and less so on family. Again, harkening back to the old ways, we visited a lot. My wife and I get many graduation announcements from extended family youth who have never darkened our doorstep. Some announcements come with their registry for gifts. They are hustling us. They literally are strangers. Oops. I shall not continue on this path as while it is true and likely related to the culture of our times, it really is tangential to our greater discussion. . . . But there really are some little shits growing up to play the system!
Ss
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#25
I think we can both agree on your last statement. Thank you for your response to this, Salonslave (and for taking the time to further consider my proposals). Culture is obviously another factor to consider and whilst I am from the U.K. rather than the US (and have therefore encountered different cultures as a result) that is quite obvious here, also.

The situation might be different in the US but it seems apparent in the U.K. that religion is actually less a factor in society than it has been in the past and that (certainly amongst descendants of Christians) religion has been replaced by a mixture of science, new age spiritualism and atheism (and I suppose we could even add identity politics if we wanted to keep the debate on that line). Maybe where religion is concerned, it’s decline and therefore the moral standards that often accompanied such which most to answer for.
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#26
I merely suggested going naked as a better solution as it excludes any kind of sexual identification, which in turn negates stereotyping or discrimination at source.
Practically, one would need to consider some kind of neutral coverings against extreme weather or PPE to combat hazardous working conditions but I wonder how much trouble one sees at nudist colonies? No doubt many would be embarrassed to go nude but wouldn't there be far more humiliation involved in forcing males to wear dresses and skirts? But I digress, as we now seem to be on the subject of curing the modern world of errant youths and what punishments need to be meted out to the transgressors.

The term "family unit" has rightfully been highlighted as one of the biggest influences, but can that term be used of childless couples? Are we still a unit, just less 2.4 kids?

My wife and I deliberately chose not to have kids and have not for one moment regretted it. It has enabled us to live as we chose (extremely useful considering my crippling fetishes!) without causing problems to society or further destroying the planet we live on. Many have accused us of being selfish and maybe we are, but what of people with large families who inflict their off spring onto us without control over their "dear ones"? Surely they are far more selfish, as they are causing far more problems to society?

I should also point out that no matter what the decade, we have always had rebellious youths that act out at society- "the man". Violence, racism, bigotry, sexism, boredom, gang culture have always been present and always will be. It is simply nowadays more widely reported on due to the nature of how media has changed and the speed of coverage.

GG has suggested the main points now dominating this debate and listed them. I respond thus:

1. By what methods do we reunite the family unit in the modern society (bearing in mind that with the change in the nature of gender specific roles, we would need to find a new model for the modern family).

Education is key. Give people a good, balanced, FREE education with decent teachers (getting paid a proper salary) on suitable, widespread subjects and wipe out ignorance. Gender roles are happily a thing of the past and couples must simply do what is best for them based on their personal circumstances. There is no need to construct stereotypical "models" or impose restrictions on people, just let them be to bring up their family as best they can within a tolerant society.

2. For wayward youth, what correctional methods (which actually work) might we consider employing?

Keep toddlers out of school to start and let them just be kids playing and having fun. At a suitable age, let the school children consider either further education or take up suitable classes that will enable them to continue into apprenticeships. Every school or university leaver to enter the army for a year or two, NO exceptions.

3. We have agreed that there should be freedom of expression and yet while on the one hand girls have the freedom to wear traditional boys clothes (and have done for so long that we don’t even think of it in those terms) and this is even enforced as mandatory in some educational institutions, while on the other hand crossdressing from males (let alone anything approaching my own ideas which we are setting aside for the time being) is seen by society as being unacceptable, how do we go about balancing this inequality?

It is balanced, just not as much as you'd like, that's all. You are free to wear what you choose as and when you care to, just as anyone else who decides to wear "socially acceptable clothing". You seem to feel society is more biased towards females in that they can wear what they choose without comment or critique and yet a guy wearing a skirt or makeup is picked on. It's always hard to be in a minority but that is each individual's choice. However, as pioneers of minorities have proven throughout history, whilst society is ice-age glacier slow to react and address imbalances, it does happen.

How many decades have people had to fight for their rights to be recognised and be treated equally? Women's liberation? Slavery? Apartheid? And even now it is still not fair or equal, just heading in that general direction. So if these major injustices take decades to gain recognition and correct, you can't really say cross dressing is getting a hard time of it. Progress in acceptance has been way more rapid.

It's funny, I briefly referred to religion and not wanting to derail the topic. I'm not quite sure how our little debate fits in with DAVID'S CHRISTMAS HUMILIATION, but I have enjoyed this exchange of ideas immensely. We are all individual and have our own passions and perversions which we indulge ourselves in, if we are lucky. I am happy to discuss mine and listen to other people's experiences but I will not try to inflict my views onto others if they are unwilling or disinterested. In other words, please tell me to fuck off as bluntly as you like if you are upset with my opinions. It is not personal, I merely enjoy healthy opposing view points.
Always in strict uniform
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#27
Thank you for taking the time to answer at such length; there is plenty to admire about your views both of society and the way you would like it to be. I genuinely think that there are a lot of males who would present themselves differently in society if they felt they were able to but there is I think probably evidence that the tide is beginning to turn in favour of this.
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#28
I think you misunderstand, I don't want society to be like this at all. Society develops at its own pace and in whatever direction the people within the society allow it to go. I am only responding to the points raised within this debate and offering my perspective. I am more than comfortable with how things are, for good or bad, as I am fully aware I cannot influence matters unilaterally- and nor do I wish to. "Live and let live" is what I go by.

"I genuinely think that there are a lot of males who would present themselves differently in society if they felt they were able to but there is I think probably evidence that the tide is beginning to turn in favour of this."

I'm curious as to why you believe this? What evidence are you referring to that leads you to suggest this? Genuinely interested.
Always in strict uniform
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#29
It is interesting that you are happy with the way society is today. Whilst attitudes will develop gradually as you have said before, I can think of a great many things about the modern world that really need to be looked at in a more in depth way and will not wait for society’s views to change of their own accord. Increasing friction between nations across the world, global warming, an ever increasing disparity between the world’s richest and poorest country (not to mention the disparity between the richest and poorest in each country that rarely has anything much to do with merit). I think as western individuals who (in my case at least) are reasonably well off, we have a tendency to ignore those problems existing elsewhere and those which we cannot see which (as we’ve discovered this year) can come upon us when we least expect it, we have some way to go in order to locate utopia.

If we look at the evidence for gender expression, bear in mind, this does not necessarily mean people changing gender but merely presenting themselves sufficiently different from the norm to be deemed unacceptable today.  We have circa 2600 members registered on this forum, the majority of whom describe themselves as sissies. Aside from this, there are specialist crossdressing fora that have many more members than this. Of course, this represents only the tip of the iceberg and recent studies suggest that between 3 and 10% of males cross dressers or has cross dressed during the course of their life (which still doesn’t take into account the males who would like to have cross dressed but never had the opportunity to).

Clearly in that case, most who do it are either like me and are (I hope) very convincing (in which case they are still having to alter their status of Male to accommodate it - I like presenting as female but posts on some of these other forums would indicate many present this way because they have to in order to be accepted), are doing it in private or not at all.
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#30
Pretty much all the things you have mentioned are being addressed at the highest levels and it precisely because society wills it that the world powers are putting these topics on the agenda. Unfortunately they are all appalling at finding global solutions because they incompetent and not because they are being ignored.

"I am more than comfortable with how things are, for good or bad, as I am fully aware I cannot influence matters unilaterally- and nor do I wish to." That does not mean to imply I am happy with the way things are at all but I also recognise some lost causes are futile so I learn to cope with things in a different manner. I was more than dismayed with how things were falling apart in the UK so we simply left and relocated to Asia where things are far better all round.

As to gender expression, again, life is far freer and accepting here.
Always in strict uniform
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